Rohirrim pointless and altered in ROTK?

[Annatar]

I'm just wondering why no one has brought up this issue at all that I'm quite bewildered and angered about... By far I’m not a book fanatic, but this change is too damn drastic not to be called..

To quote the cliche "in the books..." - The importance of Rohan at Pelennor lies in that they are part of the force which destroys the Morgul Lord's orc army... PART of the force which makes up a whole, with the dunedain and Southern Gondorian allies. The scene: Orc Army comes, lays siege on Minas Tirith. Rohan comes as an offensive force against the Orcs only to be beat down by reinforcements/orc army where then Aragorn arrives on the ships just in time with his own reinforcements and together - meeting in the middle with Eomer - take out the orc army.. Rohirrim, Gondorians (partly from the South) and the Dunedain. Kudos to the men of the west but most of all to

So what's so drastically different in the ROTK film? Using the Army of the Dead as a "wipe- out" force at Pelennor.

Using the Army of the Dead as an unbeatable force to sway the tide during the battle of Pelennor and not having other Gondorian allies arrive on the Corsair ships, leaves the entire charge and sacrifice of the Rohirrim as pointless. Theoritcally the Rohirrim could've stayed upon the hill, wait an amount of time and watch the green light show of the dead in PJ & Co's version.

I can not believe this isn't being highlighted. With the "power" of the dead, Rohan's purpose and force on the battlefield is reduced to nothing... simply a filler rather than a force. The Dead would have been victorious with or without them, while in the books the Rohirrim are an important force along with the Southern Gondorians to eliminate the Witchking's army. The sacrifice of the Rohirrim, the relevance and necessity of their presence on thebattlefield is totally voided by the Army of Dead.

To those who know Unfinsihed Tales, it's as if Eorl came to the aid of Cirion, but an Army of the Dead came right on his heels and were the force that won the wars against the Southern Kingdoms. The fact that they ride and show up isn't the main reason behind their honour.. its the fact that without them, the Orc host would not have been defeated. The sheer power of the dead at Pelennor as they splash over the orcs like a wave paints them as something the orcs could never have conquered, which just reverses the entire danger of the enemy at Minas Tirith.. In my opinion really lessening the Rohirrim as the true heroes they were because they thusly died for nothing...

A very stupid change that alters the entire standing of Rohan in the film, and Im amazed that PJ & Co never picked up on this.

[Spuffy]

I agree that the Army of the Dead is very undramatic and a little bit too much deus ex machina. PJ seems to agree, which is curious considering he upped their role in the film. I personally would have avoided them altogether. I don't think they cheapen the Rohirrim's contribution to the battle, though.

In the film, Rohan appears to have at least dealt the Modor army a serious setback; if not for the arrival of the Haradrim, it's conceivable that Rohan would have salvaged the city of Minas Tirith for at least the time it took Mordor to regroup. To me, that's no small potatoes. I'm glad you brought up this issue because I think it will end up being one of the very few things about the film that don't age well.

[ImmortalKings]

The Dead Army rocked!
Taking them would have killed a major part of the movie, It wouldn't have been nearly as cool to watch if it was just Rohirrim.

[Annatar]

I agree with this being one of ROTK's flaws as was Treebeard and the stupified Ents for TTT. That one really hurts.

The Army of the Dead has indeed an element of deus ex machina to it, but Tolkien reduces it as much as possible referrring to their might as fear and darkness. I recall that Tolkien expresses the notion that the Dead "worsen" Sauron's position through the taking of the ships rather than totally defeat it, which is something Pj reverses. The riding of the Rohirrim, their decision to fight even though they will not triumph bears no hardship for the audience once the army of dead are shown in their full "wave explosion" fury. Instead of the dead aiding the men of the west, they outright save them in the "great battle of our time".

With Rohan only worsening the orc army.. setting them back.. and the Dead as those which are utterly triumphant against the enemy, the Men of West are denied their own victory. It's something very interesting to consider in the LOTR film trilogy, the Men of the West are denied their two main victories. The Rohirrim are denied their victory at Helms Deep because of the presence of the Elves (which Im not complaing about, and utterly enjoyed.. but that still wasn't an excuse not to include Elrond's sons.) and now the Rohirrim, Gondorians and Dunedain are denied their outright battle victory on the fields of Pelennor with the Dead opted to be the catalyst. It seems the Men of the West need to have their asses constantly saved by Elves, the Dead or Hobbits which in no way demonstrates the rise of the dominion of Men.

[Imrahil]

Interesting. I don't like the Army of the Dead at the Pelennor either, but for different reasons. It effectively reduces the Kingdom of Gondor to one city and a bunch of ruins.

However, I don't completely agree with your analysis of the rohirrim during the battle. I believe they are already winning, though at great loss, and that the Dead are merely cleaning up the rest.

It was the Rohirrim who, after all, killed the Wiki.

In fact, I don't like the fact that the Rohirrim are shown to be so much stronger than the Gondorians. We see hardly any orcs being killed by the Gondorian archers on the walls or in the streets. Most of the time, we're seeing orcs killing Gondorians. But then the Rohirrim turn up and kill thousands of orcs (and a few mumakils)

The fact is that TTT is Rohan's movie, and ROTK belonged to Gondor, but the Rohirrim steal the show.

Oh well, different approaches...

[Annatar]

I agree with you very much so Imrahil in the disturbing reduction of Gondor into just Minas Tirith. This apprehension is linked with the role the Dead play which allowed Southern Gondor and it's people to be ignored, for the purpsoe of "not confusing the audience", or so I can only guess..

I too share your view that the Rohirrim had won the initial onslaught against the orcs (the charge).. and also basically had overcome the Mumakils too.. though with great loss which wasn't shown enough. But the mere fact that the Army of the Dead are seen as the "cleaners" is where the problem lies. In the book, the allies with Aragorn aren't the cleaners - they're the other half of the army which is able to combine with the Rohrrim to destroy the Witchking's army. However, in the film the Dead come out to play and its just game over for the orcs.. no fuss.. no loss.. every man can sit upon an orc corpse and enjoy the show. And that sort of invincible force leaves what the Rohirrim accomplished in the wind.. it doesn't matter if they were winning or not.. the dead would have had zero problem dispatching the orcs.. And this will be even more so demonstrated and the wasted loss of the Rohirrim shown if in the EE we get the scenes of Aragorn and the Dead taking out the ships in port..

The Gondorians did indeed get the short end of the stick in portrayl's sense.. No Prince Imrahil, no Captains of Gondor.. no inhabitants of Gondor itself.. so it's no wonder why I enjoy Rohan moreso in the films.. but PJ's needless death of Theoden and other Rohirrim in the circumstances he created I take a slight fictional offense to hehehe..

[conflikt]

I thought from a cinematic point of view, the Rohirrim's charge was beautiful. It was raw power, emotion and sheer greatness. Hearing Theoden scream his words, hit the spears, and yell "DEATH" over and over with the Rohirrim chanting was amazing. Its one of the few scenes in movie history that make my spine tingle every time I see it.

The AOTD seemed a little like a "clean up crew" in the film. Rohirrim destroyed a lot of stuff, and then the dead pretty much went into Minas Tirith and finished off the Orcs.

I can completely understand where you're coming from, but looking at it from a cinematic perspective, it was perfect. Blueprint:

Initial "WOW" of the orcs
Orcs winning
Initial "WOW" of the Rohirrim
Rohirrim takes charge, destroys everything (high point of the battle)
Winding down, Eowyn Kills witchking
Winding down, Aragorn / AOTD shows up
Finished when AOTD take out rest of Orcs

[Annatar]

By all means I would never say that the charge is nothing short of brilliant and quite emotionally charged. No problem there at all.. its the rest of the battle that got muddled and filled with hollywood tripe to give it a quick ending and a safety buffer that would protect the audience from confusion (revealing a whole other Gondorian army)..

Cinematically it wasn't perfect in that having the mortal army take the majority of the onslaught with the invincible coming in to clean a little leaves the sorrow and anguish you feel for the Rohirrim in their charge confounded and misplaced in the logical sense..

Sure in total it's great cinema, and best trilogy in existence, no doubts there, but things such as the mis-understanding of the Dead really tarnish what you draw away from the Rohirrim after the battle.. It's just like the ents in TTT.. I can't sit through those scenes and see Treebeard and such an ancient race that Tolkien envisioned with such power reduced to simpletons in favor of needless character development on the part of Merry & Pippin..

[conflikt]

Agreed 100%. I too wish no sacrifices would have been made, but that's film. For what the movies are, they're the best movies ever made. And the extended editions make them all the better. True, average moviegoers may have been confused, but then again, that is where the money comes from!

[Imrahil]

Yes Annatar, it does make it all seem rather pointless. But to be honest, I quite like the idea of the men just sitting around on the corpses watching the show!

It's interesting that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas join the fight and that quite a lot of footage is shown of them dishing out the punishment - along with one of my favourite lines and moments: "May the best dwarf win" is probably the first genuinely funny Gimli line of the trilogy! and Aragorn breaking that orc's neck. Sweet.

I suppose further, and closer, footage of the Rohirrim would have gone some way to rectify that they were still fighting and thus still important on the battlefield post-AotD. There's lots of background stuff with the Rohirrim riding around (presumably killing straggler orcs).

But still, I'd have taken Gondor Southern army over the AotD anyday. Hell, even some footage of Gondorians battling it out in MT after the Rohirrim arrive (rather than hiding behind a door).

[Annatar]

Ill choices I guess that just goes to show that nothing can be really perfect.. but it sure did come close.

[Gamling the old]

I guess I never thought of it like that Annatar.

[Irmo]

#1. The Rohon army didnt know Aragorn was going to come back and save them all. Fact of the matter is, Theoden and Co. were pretty angry at Aragorn for what looked to be deserting them.

#2. The Rohirrim had to charge. There is always that chance that everyone would die BEFORE the AOTD arivved and what then? They had to fight and keep their ground. What would Aragorn do if he arrived late? Fight at the black gate with just Legolas and Gimli? All of Gondor would be killed if Rohan didnt help. There is a huge point. The battle revolves around time. People can only survive so long in a war. The Rohirrim turned the tide for a while until the arrival of the Mumakil.

[never_done]

I was going to start this topic, but to contribute:
The charge was amazing, like in TTT at HD, a great piece of cinematic history.
For me when the AOTD came the battle just suddenly ended. No real struggle in taking the orcs out. It was quite a sharp ending to such a great battle scene, hopefully in the EE we see more of the battle with Gondor and Rohan and maybe see the AOTD actually fighting.
That would make my day

[Spuffy]

I think the time element of film plays a big role in this. The AOTD doesn't so much outright win as hurry up and finish off what's already started; the arrival of the Corsairs would have swung momentum back to the Orcs and Aragorn and Co. rob the orcs of this last needed bit of help and therefore win.

I think I agree with most here that Rohan effectively won the battle; it may have been a phyrric victory, but they destroyed half or more of the Mordor army and several Oliphaunts not to mention the Witchking. The Army of the Dead plays clean up more than anything IMO. But I still agree with Annatar, I would have rather seen the Dunedain, Elrond's sons, etc.

And yes, the charge is one the great moments in cinema.