Frodo, Bilbo and all in the undying lands?

[ob1al]

OK, so the question is pointless if we view the leaving of ME as purely symbolic at the end of ROTK, but I have often wondered what befell the passengers of the white ship, and later Sam, Legolas and Gimli as they left middle-earth for the undying lands.

I would love to hear people's opinions and interpretations on this topic.

[Dunedain87]

Fascinating topic!! This should prove to be a juicy thread.

Here's a good article about it to get started...

http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofard...greyhavens.asp

[Terintor]

I have read in the Histories of Middle Earth, that Gimli was allowed to go out of friendship with Legolas, and because of the grace of Lady Galaderial. Thus Gimli left over the sea with Legolas, was reunited with Galaderial, and eventually died in Aman. My question is Sam. Did Sam later regret not seizing the power the ring offered him and thus had to go to the west for peace and reflection?

Great Article BTW! It agrees with everything I have read on the subject.

[Dunedain87]

Originally Posted by Terintor

I have read in the Histories of Middle Earth, that Gimli was allowed to go out of friendship with Legolas, and because of the grace of Lady Galaderial. Thus Gimli left over the sea with Legolas, was reunited with Galaderial, and eventually died in Aman. My question is Sam. Did Sam later regret not seizing the power the ring offered him and thus had to go to the west for peace and reflection?

Great Article BTW! It agrees with everything I have read on the subject.

From what I've read so far, nothing indicates "yet" that Sam had any actual regrets over the Ring-- other than his moment of weakness in Mordor when saving Frodo at Cirith Ungol. His encounter with the Ring was brief, but his dedication to Frodo and the quest was probably stronger.

I must read about it further, but to my understanding Sam earned the right to pass over the sea because he was considered a Ring-bearer. Therefore, he was also a "bearer of the Ring-bearer" which must have been at least as noble a responsibility as carrying the Ring itself.

Frodo wouldn't have got far without his Sam.

EDIT: Here's a little blurb from another clever discussion forum:
# Did Sam follow Frodo into the West?

While LotR strongly implies that Sam eventually sailed West, it never says so explicitly. In "The Grey Havens", Frodo says to Sam, "Your time may come." Appendix B says that in S.Y. 1482, Sam was last seen by Elanor in the Tower Hills, and that "the tradition [was] handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea". However, Letter #154 makes Tolkien's intent clear. In it, he writes that

certain 'mortals'... may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo ... and Bilbo, and eventually Sam.

Whether Frodo was still alive when Sam reached Elvenhome is uncertain, but it does seem possible: in the same letter, Tolkien says that mortals in the West "can and will 'die' - of free will", so Frodo may have waited to pass on until Sam arrived

Doesn't say what additional impact the Ring may have had on Sam, but so little seems to have been written about Sam and his passing over the sea. I like the thought of non-elves dying of "free will". What a nice thought to think Sam may have actually seen Frodo once again.

[Samwisethebrave]

Great topic. I can't say I know much on the subject, but I always thought it was a great "end" if you will, that Sam eventually crossed the sea. What makes it better is his disappointment and sadness at the Havens when Frodo left. It's cool to think that he did get another chance to see his dear friend again.

[ob1al]

Some interesting responses!

According to Robert Foster's Guide to ME:-

'In FO 82, after the death of his wife, Sam sailed over sea, which he was permitted to do because he had been a ring-bearer'

From D.Day's Tolkien encyclopedia:-

'...in the eighty-second year of the Fourth age, Samwise sailed to the undying lands to rejoin his friend and master, Frodo Baggins.'

The above passages’ confirming what has already been discussed in this thread.

Tolkien comments:-

”Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to ‘pass away’: no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of ‘Arda Unmarred,’ the Earth unspoiled by evil.”

The above equally gives a neat explanation for Bilbo's passing also.

All well and good, but no mention of either Samwise or Gimli.

Why would both Sam and Gimli be allowed to ‘pass over sea’?

In Sam’s case, the argument stands that he was a ringbearer (albeit briefly), but events after the war of the ring indicate that Sam led a long and happy life, seemingly untroubled by any remaining desire for the one ring or guilt at his internal ‘failure’ – Sam didn’t fail or falter in Mount Doom – his course was clear and he followed it.

If the undying lands were to give Frodo a time of ‘healing’ and ‘understanding’ before he died, what then were they to offer Sam? Was Sam’s part to offer comfort and support to his old master at the final ‘end of all things’? Interesting, if he ended his days in this way, completing the circle of things and bringing an end to his vital purpose in the story.

Gimli…why would Gimli be granted passage and for what purpose? After the WR, Gimli became Lord of the Glittering Caves in Rohan, remaining friendly with Legolas and forging new mithril gates for Minas Tirith.He was known as 'elf friend' and 'Lock-bearer' because of the lock of hair given to him by Galadriel. He accompanied Legolas, his ‘brother in arms’, over the sea following the death of King Elessar. Legolas would have been granted passage as an elf – perhaps Gimli decided to "roll the dice" and set out on his final adventure with his old friend, not knowing the outcome of the journey or having been granted any passage. Perhaps Gimli wanted one last adventure? The Guide to ME remarks:-

"This action was unprecedented; it was no doubt prompted by Gimli's love for Legolas and Galadriel."

Mostly conjecture, of course, but I would be interested to hear others responses to these vague thoughts!

[Spuffy]

For me, the idea of Sam and Gimli going into the west is a symbolic if not literal reuniting of the fellowship if not in life, then in death. It speaks to the true friendship that existed between them all, especially Sam and Frodo. I know there are people in my life that if they left for some place I couldn't follow, when it was my time I would want to be with them if at all possible.

[Dunedain87]

It does seem that there is some room for the reader to draw his own conclusions without corrupting the author's intent. The Fellowship was broken rather quickly in FOTR, so being able to read about the surviving Hobbits (Merry, Pippin, and even Elanor) seeing Aragorn again many times during the Fourth Age was quite a welcome postscript. The notion that Sam "might have been able" to see Frodo (and Bilbo?) before they both died was at least probable according to textural references.

Man's fascination (in the book) with what goes on across the sea is a present plot point from the earlier tales. It's a fitting turn that readers would show the same curiosity and that Tolkien would make some attempt to address the issue further than what is explained in ROTK.

Whether Frodo actually saw Sam again is really another matter. For me, it is the power of the author to incite such a deep sense of wonder, immerse his readers to the gills in such an incredible story-- and yet leave them wanting in the end for more!! Here we are 50 years after the fact still wondering, still asking, still exploring, still experiencing, still enjoying...

That's what great literature ought to do!

Do I "really" think Sam and Frodo saw each other again?

"It is an encouraging thought." -- Gandalf

[Spuffy]

Absolutely.

[The Dark Lord]

I think Sam did pass into the West on the Last Ship with Legolas and Gimli. I also think that, in the Undying Lands, no-one who would normally be mortal becomes immortal, but they can choose when to die. So Frodo could have kept alive waiting for Sam to join him. Same for Bilbo. In fact, I like to think sometimes that by passing into the West, it returns those who enter the Undying Lands to their youth, so they can live longer. I also like to think that since the spirits of the dead go to the Halls of Mandos in the Undying Lands, the Fellowship, both those alive and dead, could be reunited. They deserve it.